Swamji said in one of his talks that "Do I wish that the Christian would become Hindu? God forbid." I hear this in the context of his talk and I think that is exactly what his is wishing. I think he does want Christians and Muslims to become Hindu in one very essential way. He wants them to be non-dogmatic, open minded and accepting of the validity of all religions. He wants Christians and Muslims to embrace religious diversity as an expression of divine plurality and creativity. He wants Christians and Muslims to have a very Hindu view of other religions. But that is not what Christianity or Islam wants. They are both very much invested in the idea that their way is the best and/or only way as given by God to live a religious life.
For Christianity to acknowledge that other incarnations of God exist and that there are equally valid ways to God outside of Jesus completely undermines most every tenant of Christianity. Christianity would no longer be Christianity if it would change its worldview to accommodate what Swami Vivekananda is suggesting in his talks. For a Christian to see the world religions in the light of what Swamiji is suggesting would involve a lot of very mushy thinking on their part. Christian theologians would have to do crazy mental acrobatics to keep their dogma intact (which is absolutely central to Christianity) and have the open and broad mindedness of Swamiji's.
What I have noticed is that people from a Hindu mindset do not take into account the importance of belief for those who are Christian or Muslim. For a Hindu, belief is not central, experience is. Hindus aim to experience God directly. For a Christian, belief is very central. In fact, it is the cornerstone of their salvation. Direct experience of God is nice but in no way is it essential for salvation. To suggest that a plurality of beliefs are equally viable for attaining salvation is just ridiculous from a Christian point of view (and I would imagine the same from an Islamic point of view). So, does Swamiji "wish that the Christian would become Hindu?" I would say, yes. He does. At least he wants them to view Christianity from a Hindu perspective, not from a Christian one.
I am writing this to get other's thoughts and perspectives.
Jai Ma!
Supper good questions. We will discuss this in our talk on Sunday. Thank you for reminding me.
I look forward to this conversation, and thank you, Bryan, for this post. It's not all Christians or Muslims who believe or promote the exclusive view you mention. though that brand of all-or-nothing "theology" is quite dominant in the 21st century, as identity politics and traditionalism are ascendant.
For that matter, and this is particularly tragic given Sri Ramakrishna's and Vivekananda's teachings and the open-minded, open-source nature of our faith, exclusivism and fundamentalism are on the rise in Hinduism.
I think you're spot-on about the role of belief--again, very central to the dominant strains of Christianity and Islam, and in Hinduism, not so much. I love the stories of Thakur basically saying, question me, test me, don't take my word for this stuff.
One way Westerners fall prey to charlatan 'gurus' is by bringing their all-or-nothing, belief-based assumptions into Hinduism, where certain unscrupulous people are all too happy to accommodate them.
There's so much to say about this! Thanks again, Bryan and Swamiji.
I agree with you that not all Christians and Muslims have that all-or -nothing view. I was presenting more how a theological view would see it. Not all Christians and Muslims hold strictly to their respective theologies or for that matter are even fully aware of the theologies they profess. I am always a bit surprised when I talk with Christians and realize that they don't really know the basics of Christian doctrine. Then I realize that not everyone is as obsessed like me with searching for God.
Like you, I also wondered if that all-or-nothing tendency in belief common in Christian predominate societies do make one more susceptible to unscrupulous gurus. I am not sure, but I think there is something to that. When you grew up believing that there is either eternal damnation or salvation, it does engender a certain pressure to get 'it' right. Once you figure out the "right" way the tendency to be a bit more fanatical is there.
Thanks for your response. I appreciate your thoughts
Blessed day, Bryan...
Thanks be to you and Hayes for your wonderful dialogue here.
I sit with your and his words, reflecting on them from various possible angles of intention and meaning. Bryan, you raise compelling considerations and write so well; I feel a brightness from your words!
While I trust we both agree with Hayes: "it's not all Christians or Muslims who believe or promote the exclusive view you mention, though that brand of all-or-nothing "theology" is quite dominant in the 21st century, as identity politics and traditionalism are ascendant", the overarching observations of your share resonate, including your preposed positions of Swamiji, or as you well place them: "I think he does want Christians and Muslims to become Hindu in one very essential way. He wants them to be non-dogmatic, open minded and accepting of the validity of all religions. He wants Christians and Muslims to embrace religious diversity as an expression of divine plurality and creativity."
"For a Hindu, belief is not central, experience is. Hindus aim to experience God directly. For a Christian, belief is very central." None can argue that when objectively speaking about the subjective intimacy shared with God, generally speaking (should we be so brave!) all is relative, and therefore near all is both true and untrue.
When very, very small, singing hymns to God--not their's as I had no idea what or who that was exactly, but of course, my very own--I was with tears down my cheeks; the only time I wasn't shy; so with myself that I was without myself. I recall after, the looks given from those near. I observed that the faces of those around me where without this incommunicable joy. They would often ask, "why are you so happy?", "how are you so smiley all the time?" I wondered of them, how are you not? Often, in their self-righteous disgust of the world they had taken pity on my seemingly unwarranted and admittedly incessant joy. And pity is not of Love. I dare say that to me at the time, they seemed as though forgetful of God, forgetful of their own wonder, as though asleep in a grave of belief, sin, shame, world, and mind. When younger, I wondered if God has left here and the hearts of our brothers and sisters of this congregation, than how do I feel It? Why is It calling me into such surrender (much to the discomfort of said brothers and sisters)? It must be here, only playing hide and seek.
After worshiping in other Christian churches, other Christian denominations, then Islam, then Judaism, then existentialism, then occultism, then Buddhism, then becoming a student of Hinduism, it seems that some churches vibrate, others long, and others still remain mere vessels. It also seems that some paths or persons confuse Love for power. I wonder if these paths or persons mistake the two because they haven't fully known the former. Perhaps if they knew Love, they wouldn't care for power as they wouldn't be afraid. They wouldn't seek at the ironic expense of others, this freedom. If they knew Love, perhaps they wouldn't seek anything at all, but give and give and give.
When looking at the historically lost-in-translation messages of some of Christianity and some of Islam, one may observe how the conditional love structures often make of those on its path such Love-starved children. It is no wonder that those who chase power through militant monomania do as they do. A rigid mind is one who doesn't know itSelf and one who doesn't know oneSelf is one who has forgotten Love.
Perhaps Swamiji came face to face with himSelf through Sri Ramakrishna. When reading this week, I find myself asking: would not Swamiji be just as the dogma he addresses should he wish to convert? Is it not the will of Source to know itSelf through us all? What better way to explore and play than through countless rivers? All the same, in the beaming faces and devoted lives of a few, the inexpressible Love available for or through each path seems to remain constant, regardless of the sleepy others in need of a most maternal lap. One wonders then, if it is not the faith or the chosen face of God or the house of worship that has the authority to turn off the faucet of the fountain, what a personal experience it is, this communion, this Loving.
As such, it indeed seems that Swami Vivekanandaji wishes not for the other faces of God known in the heart of others to reshape into those of Hinduism, but that Source's ultimate message be remembered if forgotten and embodied if known so that God can continue to be experienced, always in all ways; that the essence of God find home in them all; that this essence is that of the heart and soul being home. In this compassion, this devotion, there seems not merely tolerance, but joyful recognition of diversity. Consequently, it seems to me that Swamiji is asking notoriously fanatical faiths to learn from Hinduism's spiritual testimony and find within their hide and seek hearts, God as Love. When one speaks of what they know in this world, it often seems relative, as all memory, learning, and identity experience are perceived through a system of stimuli, therefore, when Swamiji invites the West and other nations to hold space for truth, he seems to invite them to do so through the gateway of his faith; which seems not only one of religion or science alone, but one of Love.
Some admired words from this week's resources:
"I am in every religion as the thread through a string of pearls. Wherever thou seest extraordinary holiness and extraordinary power raising and purifying humanity, know thou that I am there.’' --Lord Krishna as shared by Swami Vivekananda 1893
"Come up, O lions, and shake off the delusion that you are sheep; you are souls immortal, spirits free, blest and eternal; ye are not matter, ye are not bodies; matter is your servant, not you the servant of matter. " --Swami Vivekananda 1893
"Sri Ramakrishna cut the hinges of the heavens and released the fountains of divine bliss." --Joseph Campbell 1941
"He was unique and universal at the same time." --Swami Bhajanananda Puri of Sri Ramakrishna, 1979
"The Tantric way is to continue to dream the universe, which is ultimate consciousness engaged in ecstatic worship of Itself." -- Dr. Lex Hixon 1988
"Faith in God is too precious a thing to be allowed to remain in the dark subterranean chambers of the mind. Faith must be illumined by experience, and devotion must become a fully conscious, self-directed approach." --Swami Bhajanananda Puri 1979
"Everything's the same, even if it's different." --I Heart Huckabees
Thank you for your brilliant presence.
Bryan,
Well said, in both your post and in your subsequent response! I have read your posts on here and I am very impressed with the way that you are able to communicate very deep and complex ideas, in a very straight-forward and easy to read format. My wife often complains that I have studied so much, that I am unable to communicate the essence of an idea to others. This is particularly why I admire your writing style.
I have no idea what you do as a profession, but I would urge you to write more often, because your abilities could help a great many people!
Thanks, Jerry for your kind words. I am an acupuncturist by trade, but spirituality is a life long pursuit, so I have given lots a thought to these ideas and questions.
Jai Ma!
Dear Yogesh Ji and all who've commented here...
Looking at this thread, it is exciting to see such an insightful, thoughtful and thought-provoking discussion of these topics...Very much looking forward to today's meeting and discussions!
Apropos of this thread, I just have to post my favorite quote from last week's reading (hard to choose a favorite, because there was so much good stuff).
But Swamiji's :) (Swami V) words ring so true, and get even further to the heart of some of the differences we've talked about between faith traditions, their bhavas, and their distortions at the hands of demagogues:
From the Parliament of Religions "Paper on Hinduism" (same one that has that wonderful "Come up, lions" quote):
My italics, because this is what my Teachers have insisted on. And when you get to the "highest stage," they tell me, it's just beginning.
Hayes, Ashley and Bryan,
I have really enjoyed this thread and it has brought to mind a wonderful Vajrayana teaching, that addresses the topic at hand. Please forgive my inadequate summarization, but basically it is showing that no teaching is an end unto itself. "When travelling on a road, I have need of a horse. When travelling a river, I have need of a boat. When I reach the desert, shall I carry the boat?" All of us are traveling a path of our own necessary experiences and certain systems are precisely what we need at that moment. The trouble of fundamentalism and fanaticism arises when we become attached to the path, rather than the journey.
Belief and experience is an interesting dichotomy. We've already seen in our readings and lectures how Sri Ramakrishna was able to experience the fullness of Islam through his sadhana, and he took up his focused search for Maa with a question as to whether there was something true to the belief that the temple murti was real. So experience should never be left out of consideration of the Abrahamic traditions and I think it's rather unfair to say that belief plays a secondary role in Hinduism(s). I'm thinking also of charismatic Christianity where physical experience of heightened spiritual states is central to participation, and also the complexities of ruling dynasties and conquering armies in the Indian subcontinent and how these forces shaped the expression of Hindu religious history. The impact of belief and experience (and even how different these two really are) is certainly an interesting question to consider.